ISO50

Spot on! The colossal tree animation in the film was out of this world!

Agreed on all fronts.

yeah. i too could not get over the Papyrus subtitles. it was painful to watch. i just kept asking myself did anyone really not tell james cameron how lame and cheap Papyrus looked.

I thought the very same thing. Papyrus…really? Movie rocked otherwise.

I said the exact same thing when I saw the subtitles. I think the fact that Papyrus has been used for so many trashy massage parlors and lame newsletters is just inseparable for me.

I said the exact same thing on the way home from the movie. Weird choice.

One of my non-designer friends recently saw the movie and laughed out loud when she saw the subtitle type.

i’m pretty sure i laughed out loud in the theater when i saw the use of Papyrus for the subtitle font…what a joke. like you said alex, a $280 million movie and they use one of the most ridiculous fonts in existence.

as for the movie itself, i didn’t think it matched up to all the hype really. the cgi was definitely superbly done, but it seemed like a lot of other aspects were looked over thanks to this. for example, everything glowed or had lights on it, that seemed to a point distracting to me. yeah, glowing stuff looks cool, but it just turned into overkill. i also thought the animals, which were a huge part of the movie, could’ve been done a little bit better. truthfully, i came home and watched Planet Earth and was more blown away by real animals than i was with Avatar’s creatures. The story was also a reiteration of “The Last of the Mohicans”…but in space. To cap it off, the gundam robot had a knife…super lame.

I think design in the movie industry mirrors design in the music industry, dealing with big name artists and budgets only. Very few mainstream musicians will have an awesomely designed album cover. The majority have a standard enlarged self-portrait and their name. The movie industry is the same way. What, are like two or three major production companies that all movies go through? I would assume then they turn to the same designers or just go with the ‘industry standard’ and make ‘our new film look like this other one that just came out’.

You would think given the budgets of these blockbusters there would be some custom/interesting typeface decisions made. But maybe that would make a film look too indie; which is where most of the good design goes.

Good design gets out of the way and just communicates. If Cameron used just about any other typeface no one would have said a thing. You consider a movie like slumdog millionaire with their subtitles which really great and not typical type at the bottom of the screen (they were place strategically into each shot), and most people probably never said a thing about them. They didn’t take away from the film or the viewing experience and probably added to it.

It’s tough to know what Cameron was thinking.

Papyrus really should never be used, but IF you had never seen papyrus on a massage parlor or asian food stale or mortgage broker’s signage would it work for Avatar? A scifi movie with Aboriginal blue people? Maybe.

I also became immersed in the film in the first few minutes… I was also blown away by the escapist reality that the protagonist involved himself in.

I wish more people would have gasped at the film here in El Salvador, but most of them made snide jokes and giggled at the love scene – rather annoying.

Papyrus, aw shucks, but it’s a designer thing really, and it did speak to the bow and arrow mentality, and who knows maybe the only designer they wanted to work with tried to charge them more than they/it was worth.

And, people, we have to get out of the habit of assuming and speculating why and what happened. I also second the thought that the movie industry has had, for the most part, a sub par design approach – with all the advances in After Effects and the like we still see crappy titling, etc.

Please keep an open mind and remember, you don’t know everything about everything. And of course, nobody is as talented as you are. Riiiiight.

Peace and love from south of the border.

As a designer I agree (was once forced to use Papyrus for a logo!) but ask a ‘regular’ audience goer and they like as not will think it looks like something they can relate to in terms of being ‘fitting to the culture’.

It does highlight my main issue with the movie I had, overall I loved it, but it was marred by some very overused cliche, stereotypes etc. Didn’t ruin the film but there where quite a few moments of “I wish they hadn’t put that in” or “I wish they hadn’t said that”. Be interesting to see if the inevitable Directors cut DVD takes it more in the direction of dumb down cliche or more in the direction of what I loved about the movie.

you should not have seen the movie in IMAX because you saw a pan-and-scan version cropped to 1.78:1, whereas the regular 3D version is presented in full 2.39:1

exactly the same thoughts on the subtitles. i couldn’t help but think someone had been told to go away and design a type, and forgot until the last minute

Amen brother…I haven’t seen the movie, but I thought the same thing just from seeing the previews.

I’m glad I’m not alone in noticing Papyrus. I was livid and confused. In undergrad I was taught that Papyrus ages your work (this was in 2006). I really loved the movie but the papyrus was a MAJOR FAIL!

I know there was something not great with this movie. Thank you for show me the evidence! How can I be so blind?

Papyrus! I know why my eyes bled. :)

“poster”, not “post” in the first line

papyrus = fail

lol, i haven’t seen it yet, and i didn’t read all the comments, but it is pretty tragic that all that money went into something so hi-tech yet they didn’t budget anything for a custom letterset or even just a decent, somewhat original logotype.

I’m with Brett and Timmy:

Yeah, it looks an awful lot like the typeface we all love to hate, but really, it kind of makes sense.

I’m a crazed Swiss lover and Helvetica is beautiful, but in a movie about tribal aliens? Some clean, mathematically perfect sans would seem worse, even if I would love it in design.

So, yeah, most of us associate it with really bad design; I know I do. Used here, with actual context, I say it was a pretty decent choice.

* * *

Cornelius, stop trolling/flame baiting. Save that for youtube comments where you can argue with 13 year olds.

Speaking of horrible font choices, have you seen Into the Wild? When the title of the movie spans horizontally across the screen in something like Impact and looks like Sean Penn made it in PowerPoint.

lol @ Papyrus. God to think that horrific font will still be around when humans land on Pandora :shudder:. Anyway, thought this was a decent movie… the first time I saw it too… which was about 20 years ago when it was called “Dances With Wolves”. Just add stunning CGI and a few millenia, and viola!: AVATAR. Anyway, nice flick, but yeah, it’s a pretty blatant storyline rip of DWW (homage).

well kevinincusco, if you are an actual full time designer, or if you have ever worked in a print shop, then you would appreciate the sentiment.
i’ve seen more papyrus than your mom’s old ass and it ain’t pretty!

Well tard, you caught me, I’ve never worked in a “print shop” however a design studio and advertising agency (see http://www.bddo.com) yes; with a bunch of feeble minded kids that never matured past “mom jokes” – you’d totally dig it.

I saw Avatar the other day in 3D and thought it was simply brilliant, exactly the sort of pioneering film I would like to be making if I was a part of the movie industry.

As for the story line, predictable yes, but definitely not an issue! From someone with a strong interest in rainforest conservation, I thought the film was spot on at delivering this critical message to the audience.

Quality work James Cameron!! :)

aw, come on kev, lighten up! the mom joke..it was..a….joke.
“bddo” eh? wow. *mightily impressed*

If you think the use of Papyrus for subtitles was bad….. I just saw AN ENTIRE BOOK USING PAPYRUS!! Now that is a prime example of inappropriate usage, I’m amazed if anyone can actually read more than a page without getting a headache/crosseyes :P

Saw the movie. Twice.

The visuals were so superb I was a bit let down in the subtitles. Not because it simply looked like Papyrus, but more because they seemed a bit jarring visually on screen. Someone mentioned Slumdog Millionaire doing it right and I couldnt agree more. As designers the bottom line is to communicate.

Ask a leyperson and 99% of them won’t find any issue with the choice of a Papyrus (or similar) typeface. My wife laughed at me like she tends to do when I pointed out I even knew the name of the font. She calls that my “inner design geek.” As designers, sometimes we need to simply get out of our own ways.

Yeah, I really enjoyed Avatar in 3D. And, exactly as you’ve explained your experience watching the film, it was the same for me. It felt like I was the main character and I got completely absorbed into the movie. It was incredibly immersive.

It also reminded me of a certain video game from my youth, except for me it was Final Fantasy VIII.

Ryan, the fact that you called BBDO a dot com speaks mountains of your lack of experience in the media/design/advertising industry.

The fact that you use ‘gay’ as an insult speaks only to your insecurities, low brow sense of humor and complacent role in mediocre America.

Maybe you and Tard should start up a “print shop”, or better yet, a big toy store for little boys – then you can feel at home making gay mom jokes and playing with your joystick all day.

Some guy just doesn’t seem to realize that he put bddo.com instead of bbdo.com in the first place (if the latter is what he meant)

So he worked there but didn’t actually know what the place is called? Is it BBDO? Oh, no, it’s BDDO. Or is it BBDO? Err… Wait, I don’t know!

Why don’t you pull yourself together first, and then you can act cocky. Seriously, it’s only an advertising agency, it cannot save the world.

Avatar’s a great movie, BTW, regardless of the typeface :D

@kevininCusco

kevin,

“the fact that you called BBDO a dot com speaks mountains of your lack of experience in the media/design/advertising industry.”

This typo attempting to direct me to YOUR OWN PLACE OF EMPLOYMENT speaks mountains about the quality of work they must produce. After all, a design agency that employs nimrods that can’t even produce a correct working link to their business……

Anyhoo….keep on usin’ papyrus, kevin. It’s ‘designers’ like you who we laugh at when we see it used.

No problem Kev.

It’s always hilarious to correspond with someone as pretentious as you who still defends papyrus.

And don’t tell me to ‘just…stop’ when you’re the one here that has 7+ whiny threads.

I totally agree.
I have no clue why they chose Papyrus , that’s a really odd choice , i think they chose it randomly :))
If it was a mummy movie or something like that ,i would have totally understood cause Papyrus is a ancient Egypt cliche of a font , i wouldn’t have chosen it for a futuristic film , not in a million years

@bryan
I agree the font was chosen on purpose , but i don’t think it was chosen to create some buzz because the only people that will waste time talking about this tiny detail will be designers and that’s a tiny percentage from all the avatar viewers , i think they chose the font cause they simply like it

It makes me want to seriously hate the movie. The use of that typeface (which I consider to be much more offensive than comic sans) has sullied my entire view of the film.

That said, I actually think the film may be a bit overrated. It has some great superficial aesthetics, but nothing in the film (including the overall look) feels truly filled with depth. From plot holes and ridiculous science (fire on a planet without oxygen?) to the weak character designs all the way to the predictable plot, the entire movie seems to be a bit too focused on the technical side of things.

Then again, it could just be my perspective after that horrible type choice.

Kevin, I think you’re over thinking things.

Obviously the use of Papyrus is no reason to hate a good movie, but its inclusion was also a very poor design choice. While production of this film did begin many years ago, that doesn’t mean it wasn’t a continuous process, or that it wouldn’t have been possible to change the subtitle font late in production.

And while Papyrus is certainly a widely used font, that is the exact reason why a different choice should have been made. For such a big budget film to use an easily recognized system font is like a media firm making an advertisement featuring a picture with a simple and common Photoshop filter like “Glowing Lines” applied.

For the record though, I don’t see why people are attacking you just because your view on this is different.

Those clowns at failblog don’t even know what a plot is:

Plot is often designed with a narrative structure, storyline or story arc, that includes exposition, conflict, rising action and climax, followed by a falling action and resolution.

Do you know how many movies with grammy winning actors and directors have made a motion picture rendition of books, ideas, fantasies, fables, scripture and the like…

Like Kevin said, justify your hate you troll.

hahahaha first thing i said after was that font??!! WTF!

Yes, I know!
I was thinking that too when I saw the subtitle.
I mean, papyrus?

Probably explains why im making millions doing what i love and you guys are just commenting on how much you guys hate papyrus. it worked for the film..

Avatar was a renaissance movement for the re-branding and re-launch of an exciting “new product”, too bad it was Papyrus.

maybe they were just thinking it was tribal enough. good point though, it never crossed my mind. what crossed my mind was when did michelle rodriguez have time to paint her chopper with the navi theme?

I am not sure if anyone has already said this, but neither the TITLE or the SUBTITLES were Papyrus.

It is something LIKE papyrus, probably custom made. Still it resembles Papyrus and not in only keeping some good elements. Nearly identical A (a nice letter in Papyrus imo) with a slight gap at the right side of the horizontal stroke without the overwriting at the left side. Actually really different, for font standards.

Anyway imagine i’ve seen this with double subtitles (not an english native-speaker here) where the English to Greek and the Alien to Greek were different fonds, different colors ! A mess :P

Either all of that… or perhaps Papyrus has finally found a home. All that you know about Papyrus and all the negative associations you have with it (while valid) cloud your ability to see that it actually works for this. If you had never seen Papyrus in your life, you’d have nothing bad to say about it here… you’d just call it “The Avatar Typeface”.

Kevin, papyrus was used to represent a script for a Druid-like society. So the date 2154 doesn’t really matter…

And if you’re a fan of the techno design movement, and you find this to be appropriate for contemporary society or even futuristic societies, well you may want to do a little research as this movement borrowed type treatments dating back to the 20s with the Dutch design movement known as De Stijl.

Not going to see a movie because of the sub title font is like not dining at a restaurant because you don’t like the menu layout.

I think he’s trying to say politely that, when it comes to this subject, your friend sucks at life.

Here, I’ll try – not going to see a movie because of the sub title font is like not going skiing because you don’t prefer the seat cushion fabric on the gondola.

Okay, okay, just trying to translate… :)

AM, you mean like your sophisticated design work -> http://www.pharosdesign.com/pharos_design_portfolio_logos_01.html

???

I knew you’d say that even though in plain sight I never said I was sophisticated. You played that card.

Regardless, even your personal logo and website, is that sophisticated, I don’t even see a rollover state for your links???

Here’s a look at my old portfolio – http://www.seriousfreelancing.com/2009

Rip it apart.

And then some… http://www.coroflot.com/kevinhopp23

They should have hired a firm like Imaginary Forces, who could have created some beautiful work for the film.

Even Sphere and the dreadful remake of Island of Dr. Moreau, had incredible opening titles. All created by IF.

But Cameron started out as an Art Director and Production Designer and with his ego I don’t think it would have ever occurred to him to hire someone else to design any aspect of the film.

My other problem with the film is some of the Na’vi music. It was too African. This was an alien tribe and though they did have an African aspect to them, the music should have been a little less familiar, more alien.

Anthony Mark makes a personal dig on Cameron again…

First of all, this movie is being marketed at McDonalds, it’s NOT SUPPOSED to be anything but appealing to the masses. Fucking duh! This is Cameron’s shot at STAR WARS status! Hello?

Regarding the music, I think it did a great job of representing the kind of suffering, oppression and spirituality that countries like South Africa have experienced. And what does “alien” choir music sound like anyways?

I’d like to see the smirk on Cameron’s face while you try to pitch him on his lack of sophistication and his conceptual thievery – those hologram interfaces rocked, your interface is average at best, and in all reality people render ideas and stories from all points of inspiration. Kinda like you Anthony Mark, after looking at your promos, you too have stolen aesthetic direction by none other than the person who manages this website! Do you even think about your past actions before you blast away at what other people do?

And Mr Sophisticato, because my commercial work is in comparison lacking so much dynamic and progressive energy as yours I just can’t seem to grasp what the fuck is Paraffin-Based Graphic Design??? Is that even a coherent concept? You know the old saying, if your audience has to think longer than two seconds to figure out what is going on then your piece has failed.

Just like you failed to insult my work – simple and reductive is what I strive for in commercial design.

AVATAR is a commercial movie, targeted at kids and mainstream audiences… it wasn’t created to appease elitist wanna-be’s like yourself…

Anthony, anyone who goes to my links and has at least one functioning eye can see what you’ve said above is rubbish.

Graffiti type, hmmm, I don’t know many people who include serifs in their graffiti… Are you talking about Transit Broadcast type treatment… hmm that was inspired by a Modernism piece from the Netherlands, it has nothing to do with spray paint, break dancing and ghetto blasters.

Nice try.

And let’s take a walk back down memory lane.. you were the first one to start complaining (a habit of the archetypical bitch) about “sophistication” and now you call me a “bitch”? Your use of big words and intellectual arguments are blowing my mind…

Especially your plagiarism argument link that ends with,

“I did not accuse the creators of the film ‘Avatar’ of plagiarism,” Strugatsky wrote on his website…”

But then again what would anyone expect from such an enlightened forerunner of media, design and cinematography like yourself.

So how about you, and your entourage of pseudo intellects go down to your hipster cafe, talk about how much you hate Papyrus, and have yourself an incest-ful little circle jerk.

I still can’t believe that after Scott posted one line about Papyrus that 95% of the people focused all their negative and hate on that one thing… it’s actually pretty sad for such a great blog.

yes, the use of papyrus was instantly horrifically shocking to me. WTF. there’s absolutely no excuse for a film of this budget to stoop to that level. it’s the bastard child’s font. no one should go there. yet dozens of companies (on a seemingly daily basis) choose to use this font; not only in promotional materials, but as their goddamn logo. it’s true.

gosh darn it KevinCostaRica…are you KevinSanSalvador? I thought so. I could tell by the tone of your threads. BUT… i will give credit where credit is due. your portfolio is very nice. and i mean this. but why are you such a confrontational scug? Im not going to spray some retarded analogy or simple metaphor comparing papyrus to a horrible car wreck (although it deserves it) but get it through your head, designers bitch about it because they are just sick of it. Graphic Designers feel that by seeing it used over and over and that the more it’s seen and accepted, the more it’ll stick around. and that’s not good for design. Helvetica is nice but played. Papyrus is acceptable, but played. Etc. Etc.
Plus, i saw a very good piece you did but immediately judged it because of your type choice: COMIC SANS. Dont let your arrogance be your downfall.

i tell you what KevInSanSalvador. Lets do it. you had better drink cheap domestic american beer you well cultured fuck. Natural Light. Or worse. Since your such a world traveler meet me where i reside in dirt ass Kansas. That way you can blast my taste in everything. hit me up: peyotesunrise@gmail.com

Peace to you, my arch nemesis.

I cringe when I see papyrus. For some reason, businesses that don’t consult any sort of ad agency (or if they do, their “ad agency” has no right to call themselves such) end up using and abusing this horrendous typeface, everywhere from print to their outdoor signage.

My girlfriend, also a design geek, laughs whenever I abruptly point and yell with disgust.

I think Avatar did the world a favor. They knew that whatever jungle theme font they decided to use would get destroyed with overuse on every toddler-jungle-gym-themed-take-out-menu-pizza-box-head-shop-smoke-shop-natural-foods-shop-shoe-box-grocery-bag-church-bulletin on our sadly Unobtainium free planet.

So let the already ostracized Papyrus take the fall. :( Rest further in peace, good and faithful system font.

i have nothing against mainstream marketing of a movie, and nothing against making a honest buck, also nothing against inspiration. still, when you start stealing and pretend you’re inventing just to get your profit….

in my opinion the title font is one thing that only adds up to the lack of attention put into the craft movie. to support this: the movie copies whole concepts and art direction from such a popular game like world of warcraft. the bio luminescent forest is almost exactly as the zangarmarsh region, the flying mountains are just like the nagrand region, and i haven’t even started to speak about the mounts, be they flying dragons or tigers….
and all animals on the planet have only one evolutionary path? they all have 6 legs just like the crocolisks from world of warcraft too.
in my opinion at least the animals copuld have looked different, there’s plenty of great sci-fi to get their inspiration from. i haven’t seen any adaptation to a lower gravity (like covering ground fast, by high jumps for example). oh and i haven’t seen any demo of what reinforced bones with carbon fiber of the na’vi are capable of…
total fail! i wanted my money back at the end

kevinsalvador, about smacking people.. it’s what sorry simpletons do or feel like doing when not able to impose opinions and accepting others opinions. get a life and don’t get that serious about some comments on a blog

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